| Author | Comment | ||
|---|---|---|---|
 Basara 549 |
|||
|
Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2158 (January 10, 2009 01:15 AM) |
CavScout wrote: Yeah - anything that wasn't piloted by the 6 main characters of the 15th, Marie, or Dennis, tended to blow up almost immediately.... 
Stan Bundy sbundy@kih.net ICQ: Basara (2878324) Xfire: basara549
"One should always be wary of a scientist speaking out of his narrow field, or those invoking their name outside their fields. Scientists are human too, and are just as prone to cling to 'causes', just or frivolous, as the rest of our species." - Dr. Peter Wykoff Walker, 11 Sept 1997, rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated |
||
|
CavScout |
|||
|
Captain
Posts: 1373 (January 10, 2009 05:04 AM) |
Basara 549 wrote: I think that is a Robotech Law of Physics~!
CavScout
"The role of the Cavalry is to add colour, dash and daring, to what would otherwise be a mindless shitfight amongst grunts."-Australian Army saying 
This is my "mod-voice". If I post in red, it usually means knock whatever it is off! |
||
|
Vestras |
|||
|
Corporal
Posts: 18 (January 10, 2009 08:23 AM) |
And don't forget the pilots curse: If you tease another pilot about a relationship, you are toast in the first volley. May as well have
"RedShirt" or "Dead Meat" as your call sign.
it's entirely plausible that just off screen, a Slyphid pilot had just destroyed three transports almost single handedly, in battloid mode no less, and we never heard of him/her/it cause he wasn't a main character heh. |
||
|
Brian3D |
Logan correction... | ||
|
Commander
Posts: 606 (January 10, 2009 08:29 AM) Commander |
Vestras: I enjoy your points on the Sylphid, but I have to point some thing out in regards to the Logan. I proved to the board some time ago that the logan has
two hard points, one on each arm. I'll post one of the three pics I have from the animation it self. I'll include a pic of my logan model with a missle
compliment as well.
Two things I'd point out is that one, as some have said, Southern Cross never did make it's intended 36 episodes, so alot of what was planned for different fighters and mecha we never see. See my third pic as example. My second point is that every one seems to forget that the all of the NG mecha is smaller then the Macross mecha aswell. So what do I mean by that second point? Think about it, the Zents that defected to earth must have had some basic data on the Masters and their mecha. That being the case, earth must have known that the masters fielded smaller mecha, so why continue making mecha to macross scale? It's been pretty well established that in SC days, only a few if any malcontent groups were left, and it did not require macross scale mech to put down those scirmishes. As for the comment on space pirate, consider this, with all the ship wreckage in space, laying between earth and pluto, there is a good chance some one would go scaverging through it! Zents aside, it's easy to see how some humans, migh have grouped together and gone to space to do just that, and how some may have become pirates on the process. Just some thoughts I had in respect to this tread. ;-) 
"Well that is the battle fortress, but what have they done to it?"
|
||
|
Vestras |
|||
|
Corporal
Posts: 19 (January 10, 2009 02:16 PM) |
All good points Brian. Although I would contend that 6m in change is still really REALLY small for a fighter craft in any era. While the Alpha is a lot smaller
than a VF-1, it's still an overall better design for the type of combat with the Masters, Zentradi or (as it turned out) Invid.
At a side note, I think the ASC forces, at full strength, might have been a much better match for the Invid. A smaller mecha like the Logan wouldn't need to grapple with a Shocktrooper, and those cannons might do pretty well against their slower mecha. |
||
|
Brian3D |
Agree | ||
|
Commander
Posts: 607 (January 10, 2009 07:01 PM) Commander |
True, at only 6m the Logan really is a small fighter, and true the Alpha is better equipped to face the masters. My impression of the Logan has always been as
a kind of quick strike and or strafing fighter. Think A-10 Thunderbolt, but with out the slow speed! It comes in fast and low, and just plows what ever is in
it's path with that tri laser in the nose.
I agree that the ASC forces, at full strength may very well have given the Invid a good fight, the way the Invid initially attach as a rain of death, might have wipe out that chance though. Still, would have been sweet to have seen the ASC and Invid mecha clash! On a side note, my current project is a battle scene between a Logan and BattlePod. I'm currently at 70% on my BattlePod model, so not sure of a time frame. Promise though, as soon as I have a pre render I'll post it for every one. ;-)
"Well that is the battle fortress, but what have they done to it?"
|
||
|
ShadowLogan |
|||
|
1st Lieutenant
Posts: 284 (January 11, 2009 10:12 AM) 1st Lieutenant |
There have been jets designed for Fighter missions in the same general size as the Logan. The XF-85 Goblin is smaller than the Logan in length and slightly
larger in wingpan. The XF-85 was canceled due to a variety of issues related to its design in the late 1940s (and it was jet powered).
|
||
|
Vestras |
|||
|
Corporal
Posts: 28 (January 12, 2009 02:15 PM) |
I mainly bring up scale in regards to how the Logan just seems very unwieldy in Guardian/Battloid mode. the configuration of the arms and legs doesn't lend
itself to the typical functions needed for a battloid, such as duck and cover maneuvers, grasping or even seeing personnel/items/weapons/debris on the ground,
or even acing as fully adequate cover for the cockpit, although the wing/shields do help.
Just for a sense of scale, the Logan seems like too much cockpit in proportion to the rest of the mecha, whereas most other variable fighters seem designed to help protect the cockpit and add extensive armor for the internal systems necessitating a larger size in most cases. Back to the topic at hand, I'm rewatching Masters Saga for the first time in ages. The Logans are almost always in a close air support role (See The Trap, Volunteers, etc), although they do crop up in more aggressive roles at times (see False Start) they are quite rare. Meanwhile the Slyph is seen to always act as an Air Superiority fighter, and participates in more battles thus far than the Logan did, a role much closer to all other Veritech fighters in the canon. Few if any Slyphs are ever engaged at close range by the Bioroids, rather they are all destroyed at range usually by the transport ships or long range cannon fire from a cruiser. Masters Saga repeatedly points out that the Robotech Masters far outclass the ASC's tactics and technology, which suggests to me that the Slyph (if/as a Veritech) might never have gotten a chance to get in range to use their battloid mode in the examples we see on screen. |
||
|
rtsurfer |
|||
|
Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2044 (January 13, 2009 01:21 AM) Fleet Admiral |
There do appear to be at least two slightly different slyphid designs in the show (probably animation error or lack of quality control), one is a little
bulkier than the other and more likely to have been the veritech if it did exist. I was one of those trying to figure out and draw what its other modes would
look like if it did exist.
IIRC, the OSM describes the Logan as being designed to board enemy vessels.
"rtsurfer's two cent..." ;O)
Last Edited By: rtsurfer
January 13, 2009 01:24 AM.
Edited 1 times.
|
||
|
CavScout |
|||
|
Captain
Posts: 1377 (January 13, 2009 10:26 AM) |
Vestras wrote: When you use "close air support" what role, specifically, are you referring to? While CAS has a 'technical' definition, it almost universally used to describe air support in support of ground operations.
CavScout
"The role of the Cavalry is to add colour, dash and daring, to what would otherwise be a mindless shitfight amongst grunts."-Australian Army saying
This is my "mod-voice". If I post in red, it usually means knock whatever it is off! |
||
|
Vestras |
|||
|
Corporal
Posts: 30 (January 14, 2009 07:30 AM) |
In this case, Close Air support means supporting ground forces as you say. Volunteers in the odd one out owing to the nessesity of a VTOL craft and the smaller
size to fit int he bay being why a Logan was used in that support role. All with the exception of False Start, where they are acting as interceptors, all their
other apperanes thus far into my reviewing the series have been in actions supporting the 15th or other ground forces as opposed to hunting
The Slyph would be too large for the cargo bay, and they lack the initial VTOL (Without transforming) makes them unable to do so in a lot of their other apperances (Namely getting shot up on the runway). I do wonder if maybe the Slyph is restricted to two modes, Fighter and Battloid as others have suggested, given that might explain why they never went to guardian to avoid getting shot down. |
||
|
CavScout |
|||
|
Captain
Posts: 1378 (January 14, 2009 09:23 AM) |
Vestras wrote: Supporting ground forces does not equate to CAS, at least how I use the term and how most folks generally use the term, unless they are actively attacking ground targets the ground units are fighting. If fighters were engaged in a fight with enemy fighters over a battlefield, I would not call that close air support. The Logan is shown, as in Southern Cross (39) shows them intercepting flights of Bioroids, generally in a fighter role, not a ground support role. The Slyph would be too large for the cargo bay, and they lack the initial VTOL (Without transforming) makes them unable to do so in a lot of their other apperances (Namely getting shot up on the runway). I do wonder if maybe the Slyph is restricted to two modes, Fighter and Battloid as others have suggested, given that might explain why they never went to guardian to avoid getting shot down. Or, as Ockham's razor suggests, they didn't transform because they couldn't.
CavScout
"The role of the Cavalry is to add colour, dash and daring, to what would otherwise be a mindless shitfight amongst grunts."-Australian Army saying
This is my "mod-voice". If I post in red, it usually means knock whatever it is off! |
||
|
Vestras |
|||
|
Corporal
Posts: 34 (January 16, 2009 08:09 PM) |
By Ocram's Razor, 90% of this forum is useless since it was never referenced on Screen. All transforming fighters are simply "Veritechs" except
the Alpha and Beta, and I think one off the cuff reference to the "Valkyrie" on screen, no Logan, no Spartas, no Condor, Bat/Conbat, nada. We also
never see the fighters being rearmed on screen, so the apparently carry infinite ammo. None of the weapons have names, and the SDF-2 is a collective delusion
of the main cast since it is never seen.
We have license to ponder and expand on what we see and what accepted sources (OSM, licensed products) give us to play in. If we take a purely "Pics or It Didn't happen," we get nowhere on any discussion. Not trying to get testy or anything, I'm just saying, open minds and all that. Back more directly on topic, One thing I noted while watching Masters Saga is the Logan is actually a lot more rare than I expected. It doesn't even last half the series before being entirely supplanted by various fighter craft, the Slyph and then the AGACs. Strikes me they seemed in a hurry to get them out of the field. Additionally, in what episodes they are in, we see very few of them other than Marie and her squad mates, if any others at all, while the Slyph and the AGACs appear in massive numbers in every appearance (Comparatively). I wonder then if the Logan was a stop-gap fighter, something small and cheap to rush into service to fill a gap, be it a lack of a main-line Veritech fighter, or to bolster the Slyph, that was due to be replaced by the AGACs anyway. It might explain some of the (perceived) deficiencies in the design as well as why they seemed to be phased out so rapidly. |
||
|
CavScout |
|||
|
Captain
Posts: 1379 (January 16, 2009 09:11 PM) |
Vestras wrote: Only if there is conflict, and even then, Ockham's razor will generally give you an idea of the more plausible position. All transforming fighters are simply "Veritechs" except the Alpha and Beta, and I think one off the cuff reference to the "Valkyrie" on screen, no Logan, no Spartas, no Condor, Bat/Conbat, nada. I am not found of just using OSM names, so much of this bothers me little. We also never see the fighters being rearmed on screen, so the apparently carry infinite ammo. None of the weapons have names, and the SDF-2 is a collective delusion of the main cast since it is never seen. You certainly could suppose that too, if you wanted to. Of course, that's not the simpler answer. Oh, and the SDF2 is in fact seen on screen, it just happens to be reused SDF1 footage. The main cast (Hunter) clearly knows what he sees. We have license to ponder and expand on what we see and what accepted sources (OSM, licensed products) give us to play in. If we take a purely "Pics or It Didn't happen," we get nowhere on any discussion. Not trying to get testy or anything, I'm just saying, open minds and all that. So open, one could say all vehicles we seen in RT are transformable and you buy it? Back more directly on topic, One thing I noted while watching Masters Saga is the Logan is actually a lot more rare than I expected. It doesn't even last half the series before being entirely supplanted by various fighter craft, the Slyph and then the AGACs. Strikes me they seemed in a hurry to get them out of the field. Additionally, in what episodes they are in, we see very few of them other than Marie and her squad mates, if any others at all, while the Slyph and the AGACs appear in massive numbers in every appearance (Comparatively). The ASC seemed to rely on fixed-wing, non-transformable craft in very large numbers.
CavScout
"The role of the Cavalry is to add colour, dash and daring, to what would otherwise be a mindless shitfight amongst grunts."-Australian Army saying
This is my "mod-voice". If I post in red, it usually means knock whatever it is off! |
||
