Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?

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jedi078	Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 233 (July 13, 2007 10:07 AM) 1st Lieutenant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Tags : None From another thread: *Quote:* This is not about Marine units being effective or not but more about the fact that they are not so much more effective to warrant their use as a stand-alone service branch, specifically in the future of Robotech warfare. Ok first of all Ill point out that if the RDF had a wet Navy, Army, Air Force and Spacy branch in 2009 then there would have been a Marine branch too. This Marine element would be tasked with defending the interior of ships (to include nuclear ordinance), and spacecraft as well as securing beach heads. Also the RDF/UEG in preparing for a possible alien invasion would want a Naval Infantry force capable of landing anywhere from the seas using the Daedalus class submersible landing ships. Now would the UEG simply use the term Naval Infantry or use the term Marines for this force? I should also point out that a single Daedalus class submersible landing ship is capable of deploying an entire Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB), to include VTOL and STOVL air assets, with the fixed wing air assets of the MEB being based on the Prometheus class submersible carrier that would accompany the Daedalus class ship. Now after the Rain of Death its likely the only coherent infantry/mecha combat units would have been on the MEBs on board the Daedalus class submersible landing ships. Yes there would have been Army and Air Force units that survived the Rain of Death, but their bases would be in shambles, and it is also likely military command centers were targeted during the initial bombardment. We know humanity rebuilds/recovers from the Rain of Death, and that the Army of the Southern Cross is formed. The ASC would have most likely been built up from the ashes of the RDF/UEG Army, RDF/UEG Air Force, and possibly Privatized Military Corporations. Nevertheless the RDF/UEG Spacy and RDF/UEG Navy would have still retained their RDF/UEG Marines, and after the role they would have played after the Rain of Death I doubt the UEG would simply absorb the RDF/UEG Marines into the RDF/UEG Army. Thus there would be a EF/UEG Marine branch in the latter years of Robotech.
CavScout	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#1	[-]
Captain Posts: 1445 (July 13, 2007 12:32 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	*Quote:* Ok first of all Ill point out that if the RDF had a wet Navy, Army, Air Force and Spacy branch in 2009 then there would have been a Marine branch too. 1st, how do you know the RDF had " wet Navy, Army, Air Force and Spacy branch in 2009"? Specific anime evidence would be appreciated. 2nd, how does having the above state there has to be a Marine branch? *Quote:* This Marine element would be tasked with defending the interior of ships (to include nuclear ordinance), and spacecraft as well as securing beach heads. Also the RDF/UEG in preparing for a possible alien invasion would want a Naval Infantry force capable of landing anywhere from the seas using the Daedalus class submersible landing ships. Now would the UEG simply use the term Naval Infantry or use the term Marines for this force? Again, you have listed duties that do not justify a separate and dedicated service arm. There is no reason that interior ship defense and security couldnt be naval personal or other security focused forces (ala GMPs or more traditional MPs). Beachead can be secured by forces other than Marines. Establishing and defending perimeters is not something only Marines are capable of. *Quote:* I should also point out that a single Daedalus class submersible landing ship is capable of deploying an entire Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB), to include VTOL and STOVL air assets, with the fixed wing air assets of the MEB being based on the Prometheus class submersible carrier that would accompany the Daedalus class ship. I would point out that the Daedalus-class vessel can deploy a combat brigade of pretty much anything. Not to mention that vessel does seem to have more in common with a RORO vessel than a true assault landing vessel (see the keel). Mecha pilots wouldnt have to have specialized training in swimming the Destroids ashore as they can all-but walk to the beaches once deployed. *Quote:* Now after the Rain of Death its likely the only coherent infantry/mecha combat units would have been on the MEBs on board the Daedalus class submersible landing ships. Yes there would have been Army and Air Force units that survived the Rain of Death, but their bases would be in shambles, and it is also likely military command centers were targeted during the initial bombardment. Conclusion based on what? We have no evidence of Marine units in Robotech. You are making grand conclusions on what can be at best describe as inference or at worst made up fact(s). *Quote:* We know humanity rebuilds/recovers from the Rain of Death, and that the Army of the Southern Cross is formed. The ASC would have most likely been built up from the ashes of the RDF/UEG Army, RDF/UEG Air Force, and possibly Privatized Military Corporations. Ironically, the ASC would absorb everything but (your beloved) Marines? A little convenient, wouldnt you say? I mean, according to you all the contemporary service branches roll into one but a sub-branch of one of them remains a stand-alone? *Quote:* Nevertheless the RDF/UEG Spacy and RDF/UEG Navy would have still retained their RDF/UEG Marines, and after the role they would have played after the Rain of Death I doubt the UEG would simply absorb the RDF/UEG Marines into the RDF/UEG Army. Thus there would be a EF/UEG Marine branch in the latter years of Robotech. Youve just presented a conclusion based off assumptions as a fact in RT. You need to show that Marines existed before you can base a conclusion that they are there now based on them existing before. Basically your argument goes like: Marines were there yesterday, so they must be there today and thus they will be there tomorrow. Set-aside service loyalty and blind-allegiance when talking about Robotech. It really has no place. -------- CavScout Don't look for more honor than your learning merits.
Unregistered(d)	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#2	[-]
Posts: 0 (July 13, 2007 05:46 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	There's really no evidence of there being ANY real branch division in Robotech. In the Macross saga in most cases I believe it's simply called the 'Army' or the military, with no reference being made to specific branches of service. Southern Cross you could make an argument for there being branches, but it's a fairly weak argument since all the 'branches' that I can think of all end with Corps. Alpha Tactical Armored Corps Tactical Armored Space Corps Tactical Space Corps Tactical Corps Civil Defense Corps Civil Defense Flying Corps The only military group in SC I can think of that DOESN'T have Corps in its name is the Tactical Air Force, I of course could be wrong and will edit this post with the names of all the ASC divisions when I get home and have access to my source material. But a Corps is not a branch, a Corps is simply a grouping of military units, such as 5th Corps and 1st Corps, or even the Marine Corps, which is a division of the Department of the Navy. As for New Generation, the only name attached to the Robotech forces involved is the Expeditionary Force. I've slowly come to the possibility that in the world of Robotech there ARE no branches of service in the military. It's simply THE MILITARY, as there's simply no real precedent for it outside of the destroyed Tomahawk in Macross with the US Army on it's foot. This is could possibly be explained as the United Earth Forces quite possibly have not completed their transition to a single military entity at the time of the Macross Saga, or that the individual nations of the United Earth Government still maintained their own private military in addition to what was assigned to the United Earth Forces (This is the most likely explanation honestly) Cavscout's points ring true, as just because you have specific duties that need to be filled doesn't mean you have to have a specific branch for it. Combat fortifications and other structures aren't put together by a branch of service that handles just that, but the Army CORPS of Engineers, or in the case of the Navy the SeeBees. (Correct me if I'm using the wrong spelling or terminology) __________________ They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear. +++ The Emperor of Mankind, on the Creation of the Space Marines +++
Basara 549	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#3	[-]
Fleet Admiral Posts: 2220 (July 13, 2007 06:56 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Near as I can tell the "Marsh" unit of the ASC is actually a misuse of the word - the wrong synonym for "Marine". There is always a need for a Marine-like force to spearhead an invasion - a bunch of gung-ho types that are so into what they do that they are less likely to break or fall back off the beachhead. The Rangers that were at Normandy served the same purpose. They don't HAVE to be "Marines" as a separate branch. It could just be a classification within a larger military. As for what we see in Robotech that could be considered "Marine Aviation". think of it as two different areas of emphasis in training - Standard Aviation "MOS" (for lack of a better term) with emphasis being on aerospace fighter combat, and what would amount to standard training on use of the other modes, and the Assault "MOS", which gives less training on the air to air role, but deeper training on ground attack missions, more in-depth training on Battloid & Guardian mode combat manuevers, and the like. To use a real-world example - just because one USN flight crew flew an F-4 in an attack in the 80s off a flattop doesn't mean they has the same air combat training (or even takeoff and landing training) as a USAF team in the same decade flying an F-4 Wild Weasel variant - or one using the F-4 as an interceptor in either branch during Vietnam. One should always be wary of a scientist speaking out of his narrow field, or those invoking their name outside their fields. Scientists are human too, and are just as prone to cling to 'causes', just or frivolous, as the rest of our species. - Dr. Peter Wykoff Walker, 11 Sept 1997, rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated Stan Bundy sbundy@kih.net ICQ: Basara (2878324)Administrator, RDF-HQ Communications Center, and Ringmaster of the Disciples of Zor, Robotech, and Robotech Fanfiction Webrings Fanfic Author: The Freeman Chronicles, The Andrews Incident and The Manifestation of Destinies Author of the ABP-Z4 for the Robotech RPG (The Rifter #5), and net supplements for all Palladium RPGs. Maintainer, Palladium Fan FAQ Gaming files, the FAQ and the fanfic are at: http://home.kih.net/~sbundy/
CavScout	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#4	[-]
Captain Posts: 1445 (July 14, 2007 05:37 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	*Quote:* There is always a need for a Marine-like force to spearhead an invasion - a bunch of gung-ho types that are so into what they do that they are less likely to break or fall back off the beachhead. The Rangers that were at Normandy served the same purpose. Honestly, I am not sure what this means. Marines have been good fighters, then and now, but they are not some mystical force a cut-above other fighting men. As for beachheads, the major amphibious assaults in Europe, Normandy and Dragoon were done with Army units and US Army Divisions were involved in nearly every island campaign in the Pacific. Note that this is not a knock on Marine capability but only highlights the duplicative roles. As for Rangers, their missions in Normandy werent securing beachheads but eliminating gun emplacements. Units that have specialized training, which is generally the call of the Marine supporters, do not have to be separate branches of service. For example, Airborne unites are highly specialized but they dont have there on branch of service (say as part of the Airforce). I would even go out on a limb and say their mission (airborne) is more specialized and requires more gung-ho than even Marines. *Quote:* As for what we see in Robotech that could be considered "Marine Aviation". think of it as two different areas of emphasis in training - Standard Aviation "MOS" (for lack of a better term) with emphasis being on aerospace fighter combat, and what would amount to standard training on use of the other modes, and the Assault "MOS", which gives less training on the air to air role, but deeper training on ground attack missions, more in-depth training on Battloid & Guardian mode combat manuevers, and the like. To use a real-world example - just because one USN flight crew flew an F-4 in an attack in the 80s off a flattop doesn't mean they has the same air combat training (or even takeoff and landing training) as a USAF team in the same decade flying an F-4 Wild Weasel variant - or one using the F-4 as an interceptor in either branch during Vietnam. Not sure any of this really applicable to Robotech. First, for the most part, contemporary branches (AF, Naval and Marine aviation) tend to use specialized aircraft. Some of this may be from need, but a lot of it is from politics and defense budget dollars. In Robotech, we see a much more simplified range of vehicles. Now this could have been the result of lessons of the Global War or a need to keep support for the new equipment simplified as possible. It simply makes little logical sense to have multiple arms using Alpha fighters, for example, and expecting them to all have a niche role. Sure, you can have a empisase on a role (attack versus fighter roles) but again, I dont think it require a separate branch. Do you think a M1 tank crew from the Marines fights appreciably different than a M1 tank crew from an Army unit? I dont. Training and focus is going to be dictated by the equipment you use. Using your example of the F4 in Vietnam, F4s used in the air superiority role would have been used similarly in the Navy, Marines and Air Force and their air combat training would have been similar. -------- CavScout Don't look for more honor than your learning merits.
CavScout	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#5	[-]
Captain Posts: 1445 (July 14, 2007 05:52 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	*Quote:* There's really no evidence of there being ANY real branch division in Robotech. In the Macross saga in most cases I believe it's simply called the 'Army' or the military, with no reference being made to specific branches of service. Southern Cross you could make an argument for there being branches, but it's a fairly weak argument since all the 'branches' that I can think of all end with Corps. Alpha Tactical Armored Corps Tactical Armored Space Corps Tactical Space Corps Tactical Corps Civil Defense Corps Civil Defense Flying Corps The only military group in SC I can think of that DOESN'T have Corps in its name is the Tactical Air Force, I of course could be wrong and will edit this post with the names of all the ASC divisions when I get home and have access to my source material. But a Corps is not a branch, a Corps is simply a grouping of military units, such as 5th Corps and 1st Corps, or even the Marine Corps, which is a division of the Department of the Navy. As for New Generation, the only name attached to the Robotech forces involved is the Expeditionary Force. I've slowly come to the possibility that in the world of Robotech there ARE no branches of service in the military. It's simply THE MILITARY, as there's simply no real precedent for it outside of the destroyed Tomahawk in Macross with the US Army on it's foot. This is could possibly be explained as the United Earth Forces quite possibly have not completed their transition to a single military entity at the time of the Macross Saga, or that the individual nations of the United Earth Government still maintained their own private military in addition to what was assigned to the United Earth Forces (This is the most likely explanation honestly) Cavscout's points ring true, as just because you have specific duties that need to be filled doesn't mean you have to have a specific branch for it. Combat fortifications and other structures aren't put together by a branch of service that handles just that, but the Army CORPS of Engineers, or in the case of the Navy the SeeBees. (Correct me if I'm using the wrong spelling or terminology) Specifically, in Masters episodes, the evidence is there for an integrated command and not separate branches. Specifically were we a see a division made up of units from various Corps (ATAC, Space Corps to the GMP) in Episode #39: The Southern Cross. Personally, I see the ASC as a very modular force were combat units are built based on need. -------- CavScout Don't look for more honor than your learning merits.
LEM	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#6	[-]
3rd Lieutenant Posts: 131 (July 14, 2007 07:01 AM) 3rd Lieutenant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	*Quote:* Using your example of the F4 in Vietnam, F4s used in the air superiority role would have been used similarly in the Navy, Marines and Air Force and their air combat training would have been similar. Actually, the Air Force had less training than Navy and Marine pilots had. The Top Gun concept had department of the Navy stamped all over it. My reference is Dogfights from its first ace USAF BGEN Ritchie, ret. I believe.
CavScout	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#7	[-]
Captain Posts: 1445 (July 14, 2007 07:39 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	*Quote:* Actually, the Air Force had less training than Navy and Marine pilots had. The Top Gun concept had department of the Navy stamped all over it. My reference is Dogfights from its first ace USAF BGEN Ritchie, ret. I believe. That is about better training. The Air Force had focused to heavily on shooting down bombers. And once in combat, how quickly did the focus change? Pretty quickly. Besides, there were only 2 US pilot aces in Vietnam, a Naval and an Air Force, so the disparity of training doesn't seem to be all that great of a factor once hostilities started. In fact, I would argue that the fracturing of the fighter role among different service branches lead to a dillution of focus and hurts us in the long runn with differente branches picking different mission focus. -------- CavScout Don't look for more honor than your learning merits.
Unregistered(d)	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#8	[-]
Posts: 0 (July 14, 2007 08:59 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	I agree, diversifying training between branches simply dilutes the overall skill-base available and makes completing the mission that much more difficult and costly. __________________ They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear. +++ The Emperor of Mankind, on the Creation of the Space Marines +++
CavScout	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#9	[-]
Captain Posts: 1445 (July 14, 2007 09:23 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Yep. Instead of branches taking an over-all approach to training they try to justify their exsistence in particular avenue, like the Air Force did by acting as the branch need to protect against hordes of Soviet nuclear-laden bombers. Shows how short sighted the AF planners were by completely missing that the coming ICBM would regulate that thinking to the back, back burner. -------- CavScout Don't look for more honor than your learning merits.
ShadowLogan	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#10	[-]
1st Lieutenant Posts: 293 (July 14, 2007 11:14 AM) 1st Lieutenant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Something to consider would the UEG Government even be willing to fund excessive duplication between service branches? There likely would be some duplication, I don't think you can get around that. How much duplication exists in the US military because the budget allows for it? What about non-US militaries which have smaller budgets? Also remember post RoD, the military will also be in competition for funding from costly reconstruction and colonization efforts. The budget will also likely cover other non-military services that could be viewed as essential. Then there's the pork spending... Between Ep.36 & Ep.37 we learn that Earth has become fuedal society, so funding might not be as large as one thinks should be available. Also the population was reduced.
CavScout	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#11	[-]
Captain Posts: 1445 (July 14, 2007 12:52 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Yeah, post Rain you'd think it would be even more likely to consolidate. -------- CavScout Don't look for more honor than your learning merits.
Unregistered(d)	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#12	[-]
Posts: 0 (July 14, 2007 03:09 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	That would also explain why most military equipment is multi-role, as the current trend of having one item that does one job simply wouldn't be feasible in a world where most the manufacturing capabilities have been wiped out. __________________ They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear. +++ The Emperor of Mankind, on the Creation of the Space Marines +++
Basara 549	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#13	[-]
Fleet Admiral Posts: 2220 (July 14, 2007 05:07 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Cav: What it means is you want a bunch of people too stubborn to fall back. Not really any more "elite" than anyone else - just less likely to give up prior to mission completion. That's the one thing that Marine training tends to bring out more than the other branches - a stubborn streak to not back down from a fight. Which, ironically, is why a lot of marines get into trouble away from combat. Consider it, if you will, an esprit de corps that is instilled into a force to make it more loyal (especially to one's own comrades), less likely to question orders (IMO one of the reasons why Wolfe's people rarely second-guessed his "ability" to keep the town safe), and more likely to salvage a bad situation through force of will, and the ability to pull something out of their ass. To an extent, EVERY "elite" force has these to one extent or another (elite, in this example, is about any unit one would be recruiting for Delta from, or their foreign equivalents), and you can't bring them out in a large segment of your forces, even if you wanted to. The marines have a bit of it, just not as jacked up to the levels of the truly elite, through their training and playing of their mystique card (not to mention selective choice of recruits looking for that attitude). You know the old thing about "some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but not all the people all the time"? Well, it also applies to attitude, not just fooling people, and the marines tend to be the "some of the people all of the time" in terms of military attitude. You just can't get ALL of your troops THAT committed that often (Though some times you can get them all worked up to that level for a short period). One should always be wary of a scientist speaking out of his narrow field, or those invoking their name outside their fields. Scientists are human too, and are just as prone to cling to 'causes', just or frivolous, as the rest of our species. - Dr. Peter Wykoff Walker, 11 Sept 1997, rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated Stan Bundy sbundy@kih.net ICQ: Basara (2878324)Administrator, RDF-HQ Communications Center, and Ringmaster of the Disciples of Zor, Robotech, and Robotech Fanfiction Webrings Fanfic Author: The Freeman Chronicles, The Andrews Incident and The Manifestation of Destinies Author of the ABP-Z4 for the Robotech RPG (The Rifter #5), and net supplements for all Palladium RPGs. Maintainer, Palladium Fan FAQ Gaming files, the FAQ and the fanfic are at: http://home.kih.net/~sbundy/
Brooklyn Red Leg	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#14	[-]
Commander Posts: 729 (July 14, 2007 06:32 PM) Commander Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Well, I think RevPrez was the first to suggest it (and I tend to think his model of things is the best one I've seen) is that there are 4 separate service branches: Army (of the Southern Cross), Air Corps (which includes Space Naval forces and Cosmic Unit Space Marines), (wet) Navy and GMP. As for the situation presented in Southern Cross, I tend to think United Earth Command is a Unified Command (ala CentComm) with various units chopped to it from the service branches (maybe even Navy) to create a large combined arms 'division' (for lack of a better term). Same with Space Station Liberty and Pioneer Mission. ::shrugs:: As for the Marines, I could see the (wet) Navy keeping their own naval infantry Marines for quick force projection. Since the surface naval force is no longer the main means of force projection (Army units could be planted onto a target in under an hour with suborbital transports like the Albatross or Horizon). Space Marines would be there to secure space stations, boarding actions against Zentraedi ships (the Logan is especially suited for that), ships security and probably seize space ports (sort of like the US Army's Rangers). Planetary scale invasion would require regular grunts with both motorized and leg infantry, mecha, artillery and the logistics necessary to keep said force in the field for 30 days. Let Harmony Gold and its licensees know that you want Robotech Masters Merchandise! Sign the petition and help us! Masters War Merchandise Petition
CavScout	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#15	[-]
Captain Posts: 1445 (July 14, 2007 07:04 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Bas: I think that it is a reach to pain the Marines as a whole with such a broad-brush. Certain attributes attributed to Marines have reached an almost folk-lore level. -------- CavScout Don't look for more honor than your learning merits.
jedi078	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#16	[-]
Posts: 233 (July 14, 2007 11:01 PM) 1st Lieutenant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	*Quote:* 1st, how do you know the RDF had " wet Navy, Army, Air Force and Spacy branch in 2009 wet Navy We see ships in Harbor, two of them are in fact large submersible aircraft carriers. If there is a Navy they would have some sort of Naval Infantry force component (i.e. Marines). Spacy UN Spacy is seen on veritech and destriods. Like the Navy the Spacy would need some sort of infantry component (i.e. Marines) to board vessels, and what not. Army If the U.S. Army had destriods dont you think the UEG/RDF would have an Army too? That and we later see the Army of the Southern Cross. Air Force You dont think that Macross Island would have not had its own air defense forces? Somebody would have been needed to provide air superiority. The ASC did have a Tactical Air Force so who di that before the ASC came into being? *Quote:* Ironically, the ASC would absorb everything but (your beloved) Marines? No I said there would be Spacy and Marine branches, which would be the EF. EF or Expeditionary Force implies a force sent somewhere to fight. I have also noted that there would be branches tasked to provide planetary defense, and carry out large invasions on a planetary surface. Of course somebody would have to create a beach head to land all the heavy equipment. Whomever gets sent down to create that beach head is very likely to face heavy resistance and will have to have a mindset to overcome this heavy resistance. *Quote:* But a Corps is not a branch, a Corps is simply a grouping of military units, such as 5th Corps and 1st Corps, or even the Marine Corps, which is a division of the Department of the Navy. A Corps is defined a battlefield formation composed of two or more divisions. It can also identify specialized troops such as the Army Corps of Engineers and the United States Marine Corps. The USMC is not a division of the Navy it is in fact four divisions (3 active 1 reserve) which are responsible for providing power projection from the sea, utilizing the mobility of the U.S. Navy to rapidly deliver combined-arms task forces. *Quote:* As for New Generation, the only name attached to the Robotech forces involved is the Expeditionary Force. You know what an Expeditionary Force is? An Expeditionary Force is sent to fight elsewhere, invade, and conquer. We clearly see the ASC in the anime defending Earth. *Quote:* Units that have specialized training, which is generally the call of the Marine supporters, do not have to be separate branches of service. For example, Airborne unites are highly specialized but they dont have there on branch of service (say as part of the Airforce). I would even go out on a limb and say their mission (airborne) is more specialized and requires more gung-ho than even Marines. IMO the Airborne is the part of the Army that is most like the Marines. You have to be crazy, or have the believe that your invincible to carry out the missions the Airborne and Marines carry out. *Quote:* First, for the most part, contemporary branches (AF, Naval and Marine aviation) tend to use specialized aircraft. Some of this may be from need, but a lot of it is from politics and defense budget dollars. But we are seeing a trend where the service branches are using the same aircraft, abit each branch has their own version of that craft (F-35). We also saw that the Navy, Air Force, and Marines used the F-4. *Quote:* Do you think a M1 tank crew from the Marines fights appreciably different than a M1 tank crew from an Army unit? I dont. There is a big difference when you are operating as part of a Tank Battalion (Army) or as part of a MEU (which might have a Tank Platoon). Marines have always lacked heavy armor assets, as its a big pain to get M1A1s from ship to shore. In fact you can only get one M1A1 on a single LCAC. This lack of armor is somewhat made up for with CAAT, and LAV units. *Quote:* As for the Marines, I could see the (wet) Navy keeping their own naval infantry Marines for quick force projection. Since the surface naval force is no longer the main means of force projection (Army units could be planted onto a target in under an hour with suborbital transports like the Albatross or Horizon). Yes its true with ships in orbit you can land troops anywhere you want to carry out raids and so forth. But if the planet were invaded the oceans could/would serve as a great place to wage guerrilla war from. Provided there are ships capable of transporting mecha/troops. *Quote:* Space Marines would be there to secure space stations, boarding actions against Zentraedi ships (the Logan is especially suited for that), ships security and probably seize space ports (sort of like the US Army's Rangers). Planetary scale invasion would require regular grunts with both motorized and leg infantry, mecha, artillery and the logistics necessary to keep said force in the field for 30 days. Brook, in your opinion would the term Space Marine be formal (as in there are dedicated Space Marine UNit that carry out the above described missions), or informal?
CavScout	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#17	[-]
Captain Posts: 1445 (July 15, 2007 06:12 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	*Quote:* wet Navy We see ships in Harbor, two of them are in fact large submersible aircraft carriers. If there is a Navy they would have some sort of Naval Infantry force component (i.e. Marines). Spacy UN Spacy is seen on veritech and destriods. Like the Navy the Spacy would need some sort of infantry component (i.e. Marines) to board vessels, and what not. Army If the U.S. Army had destriods dont you think the UEG/RDF would have an Army too? That and we later see the Army of the Southern Cross. Air Force You dont think that Macross Island would have not had its own air defense forces? Somebody would have been needed to provide air superiority. The ASC did have a Tactical Air Force so who di that before the ASC came into being? Ships in harbor: We don't know who they belong to. They could be under RDF command but still belong to national militaries (as the US Army destroid would indicate still exsist). And even if the RDF did have a surface navy arm, that in and of itself is not proof of a Marine force. UN SPACY: Contradicts everything else in Robotech. We know its not the UN, its the UEG and the characters never refer to it as SPACY or whatnot. We all know why the UN SPACY appears in the anime. Air Force: Again, nothing suggesting a seperatet services arm. Using the ASC example, we see intergrated services. *Quote:* No I said there would be Spacy and Marine branches, which would be the EF. EF or Expeditionary Force implies a force sent somewhere to fight. I have also noted that there would be branches tasked to provide planetary defense, and carry out large invasions on a planetary surface. Of course somebody would have to create a beach head to land all the heavy equipment. Whomever gets sent down to create that beach head is very likely to face heavy resistance and will have to have a mindset to overcome this heavy resistance. Good god almighty, why do you think only Marines have the mindset to make invasions? Its silly and simply shows ignorance. Again I would point to history if that would make a difference. *Quote:* But we are seeing a trend where the service branches are using the same aircraft, abit each branch has their own version of that craft (F-35). We also saw that the Navy, Air Force, and Marines used the F-4. A trend? We'll have to wait and see if they even deploy the F35 and even the F4 is an exception and not a rule. *Quote:* There is a big difference when you are operating as part of a Tank Battalion (Army) or as part of a MEU (which might have a Tank Platoon). Marines have always lacked heavy armor assets, as its a big pain to get M1A1s from ship to shore. In fact you can only get one M1A1 on a single LCAC. This lack of armor is somewhat made up for with CAAT, and LAV units. You didn't answer the question, do you think the M1 crew fights appreciably different. Just like an infantry soldier and a Marine are not going to fight appreciably different. *Quote:* Yes its true with ships in orbit you can land troops anywhere you want to carry out raids and so forth. But if the planet were invaded the oceans could/would serve as a great place to wage guerrilla war from. Provided there are ships capable of transporting mecha/troops. Why would you land surface ships so you could then land on a coastline when you could do the samething from orbit and have even more locations to drop? -------- CavScout Don't look for more honor than your learning merits.
Jefffar	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#18	[-]
1st Lieutenant Posts: 290 (July 15, 2007 06:24 AM) 2nd Lieutenant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	So there would be infantry branches of the UN Spacy and the UN Navy some of which may hae the term Marine applied to them. Like most of today's Marine / Naval Infantry units they would be a specialized infantry force . . . not quite true SOF, but definitely an elite force. However, I suspect that they would not be a very signifigant portion of the UN forces as there would not be much oppourtunity for them to partake in the assault missions that grew the USMC from a naval security force into a much more formdable branch. So yes to specialized Spacy and Navy infantry forces, no to entire MEBs.
madmikechoi	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#19	[-]
Corporal Posts: 66 (July 15, 2007 06:29 AM) Corporal Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	*Quote:* There's really no evidence of there being ANY real branch division in Robotech. Bear in mind the writers of the original source animation nor the RT script writers had limited/if any military experience. The last time the Japanese had military conscription was the Second World War and if folks will recall they got their asses curb stomped into the fucking deck for the obvious reasons. The last time Uncle Sugar had the swinging dicks getting nice form letters telling you to report to whatever fucking post for the next two plus years it was during Vietnam and hippies didn't like that shit. Since then the US has had a professional military for the obvious reason that guys who dish pain out and stop bullets for a living are supposedly less of military liability. There's also a lot of shit lost in translation- often East Asian terminology for military has been translated as army. That's why you get weird ass shit like People's Liberation Army Navy- PLA is the Mainland's military. Course Beijing could change the proper name to the People's Republic of China Navy or what have you but that's a lot of fucking make work and I don't think in the end the Reds give a fuck what round eyed barbarians think of them. *Quote:* Civil Defense Corps Civil Defense Flying Corps I'm sorta irked at the civil defense as part of the military. It's one thing to ahve a robust reserve component. Any military organization worth half a flying fuck should have dudes who can be called up when the shit has most definitely hit the fan; however, civil defense is a concept of civilians protecting their own assets albeit usually associated via unarmed means. *Quote:* But a Corps is not a branch, a Corps is simply a grouping of military units Not true. Corps as a terminology is often used in lieu of branch. Things like the Royal Logistics Corps or ordnance corps or quartermaster corps or transportation corps. Often it's associated grouping combat support/service support units under one banner for training and administrative purposes. A corps is also a tactical/operational formation. And even a service branch such as a USMC- they are a separate military service under the Dep't of Navy *Quote:* just because you have specific duties that need to be filled doesn't mean you have to have a specific branch for it. I have to disagree here b/c the missions of combat units, combat support/service support personnel units means you need at the very least training establishments to make sure doctrine is rammed down everybody's throats to the point where HMFICs of joint commands know exactly what people under them can do and won't do. While we can make the argument that there shouldn't be a need for separate air force and naval aviation in RTverse it is apparent that some dudes have military ranks and paygrades and others naval. So in essence there has to be a fleet and its support train and the mission is to fight glorious naval battles, move men across the stars and shove the flag. And the gropos whose job is to land on planets and beat heads in; you don't own anything until your grunts are have planted the flags and executing the recalcitrant natives for being godless small dirty smelly heathens. *Quote:* Combat fortifications and other structures aren't put together by a branch of service *Quote:* Of course not alrger combat formations means you will need both maneuever forces- infantry and armor or what have you and support personnel- everybody from truck drivers and mechanics to blanket stackers and Powerpoint commando
CavScout	Re: Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?	#20	[-]
Captain Posts: 1445 (July 15, 2007 06:51 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	*Quote:* I have to disagree here b/c the missions of combat units, combat support/service support personnel units means you need at the very least training establishments to make sure doctrine is rammed down everybody's throats to the point where HMFICs of joint commands know exactly what people under them can do and won't do. While we can make the argument that there shouldn't be a need for separate air force and naval aviation in RTverse it is apparent that some dudes have military ranks and paygrades and others naval. So in essence there has to be a fleet and its support train and the mission is to fight glorious naval battles, move men across the stars and shove the flag. And the gropos whose job is to land on planets and beat heads in; you don't own anything until your grunts are have planted the flags and executing the recalcitrant natives for being godless small dirty smelly heathens. While RT has confusing and duplicative rankings I do not belive that it actually points to distinctive service branchers. While we see traditional surface and naval ranks, we see the traditional surface ranks commanding naval vessels (generals and majors). -------- CavScout Don't look for more honor than your learning merits.

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Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?

Is there a specific need for a Marine branch in the UEG?

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