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rtsurfer |
Proto-Alpha revisited... |
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I found a cheap transforming plane at Wally world the other day that reminded me of a still from TNG/Mospeada. There was a thread concerning the possibly of this TNG/Mos aircraft being transformable on RDFHQ a long time ago, thought I'd repost that still with pics of the toy to further illustrate the possibility of it being a transformable predicessor to the Alpha:
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() "rtsurfer's two cent..." ;O)
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Brooklyn Red Leg |
Re: Proto-Alpha revisited... | ||
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Hmmm...I'm not entirely sure that this plane transforms. However, I am willing to concede that it most likely has parts commonality with the Alpha. I guess it could be seen as a cost-saving measure to build a non-transformable plane alongside the Alpha, allowing for a low-end version to be more available than the high-end Alpha.
::shrugs:: PS - BTW, nice to see ya again Rtsurfer. Its been so quiet in fandom without ya. Let Harmony Gold and its licensees know that you want Robotech Masters Merchandise!
Sign the petition and help us! Masters War Merchandise Petition ![]() |
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Cyclone |
Re: Proto-Alpha revisited... | ||
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Hmm... never realized that Classics Jetfire probably borrowed just as much from Silverbolt as the VF-1 but I digress...
The other shots, or the other assumed shots, of it at Point K point to flat backed fighter unlike the Alpha, so this meets the requirement for that too. ![]() |
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ShadowLogan |
Re: Proto-Alpha revisited... | ||
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Nice to see you back rtsurfer
I think your right this craft could be viewed as a Veritech in a quasi-status baring something else from the animation/audio to disqualify it. That's from the Wolf flashback sequence correct? The wing shape might even be swing-wing style (ala VF-1) due to the shading in the picture. Cyclone: Are you refering to the REF_Aircraft_Type_2 from Robotech Research's picture archive? They classify this as a REF_Aircraft_Type_1. The T2 from the rear shot has 3-engine ports, this only appears to have two from this shot. Brook: I would think the Fighter Carpenter deployed used would fit the bill of non-transforming Alpha-knockoff/derivative. Which I think is apparant from the: side, top, front profiles. It lacking the need to transform could explain the big differences in the rear profile and the wing/tail design (that or the Alpha's has changed majorly over the years). |
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LEM |
Re: Proto-Alpha revisited... | ||
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Does anyone know if there is more to that particular shot? Does it occur in space or an atmosphere? Is the object in the background a spacecraft/station?
There is one thing I would like to point out. Why would a conventional fighter, even if it shared component similarity with the Alpha series of aircraft, have clearly defined protrusions at the end of the main nacelles, which indicate feet? As far as I know, the Conbat (NG), Dragon (Macross), and many of the Southern Cross era nontransformable aircraft don't have them. Does anyone have a better screenshot of the wing? With this, it might be possible to glean what kind of mission this aircraft is geared towards. Edit: I found my own answer. The wing is reminscient of a Dornier Rautenflugel joined wing, which is more advanced than the Alpha's modified Delta planform. This design should be able to deliver the goods in pure air to air, even with external stores. |
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Cyclone |
Re: Proto-Alpha revisited... | ||
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Here's a screen cap of the scene from the Region 4 Madman remastered GCM DVD, the R2 release is much the same except slightly fuzier/different tinting. Off the top of my head I can't recall any line-art of it.
![]() Given that in Mospeada it's intended to be an example of his heroic actions against Jupiter rebels, most likely occurs in space. ![]() |
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Brooklyn Red Leg |
Re: Proto-Alpha revisited... | ||
Quote: No, the SF-4 Wraith fulfills an entirely different job than that of the Alpha (which is geared to Air Superiority/Ground Attack). They don't share any parts commonality (which the Alpha would appear to do with the <AF-6DF Vulture?>) and their loadouts don't appear to be anywhere alike. At a guess, this fighter has 4 wing hardpoints, 2 outboard hardpoints (like the F-16) and maybe an internal weapons bay as well as nose-cannonsn (I think), which would make for a good Ground Attack capable plane. ![]() Because of the Alpha's short legs in space and relatively low speed intra-atmospheric, its not an Interceptor/Fleet Defense like the Wraith and Sylphide. ![]() Let Harmony Gold and its licensees know that you want Robotech Masters Merchandise!
Sign the petition and help us! Masters War Merchandise Petition ![]() |
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LEM |
Re: Proto-Alpha revisited... | ||
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Cyclone, in Mospeada, who is piloting that aircraft?
Quote: I am getting a little confused with the aircraft designations. I will assume that the Vulture is the same aircraft Carpenter used to attack the Masters' fleet in "Outsiders." That alone should make its role clear: They are space borne attack aircraft reliant upon their forward firing energy weapons and possibly missiles to attack enemy vessels. Carptenter even called these aircraft attack craft. Firestorm One, presumably leader of one strike package, self identified his group as an attack wing/group. Although their roles are different, the Alpha is an attack aircraft too but a "ground" attack (attack references its unique attack capability in Battloid, not its ability to carry bombs) or multi-role fighter like the F-16C, not an air superiority fighter. Quote: Hardpoints aren't the best indicator to allow you to make a determination on an aircraft's role. Look at the wing. I referenced this type in a previous post. Quote: By looking at the Alpha's size, I see why you would come to that conclusion. Considering that the Alpha performed BARCAPS near HEO from the dark side of the moon without a burn and drift profile in TSC, I don't know if you can definitively say that the Alpha has "short legs." To me, that's not a short range aircraft. The only SC aircraft that served as a space Fleet Defense type fighter would be the Robotech Research's Corsair III, which was escorting Emerson's fleet to Moon Base Luna in "The Hunters." The Slyphid along with the aircraft the RRG called Falcon II are the only air superiority/interceptors (not always the same) in the SC's inventory. |
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Cyclone |
Re: Proto-Alpha revisited... | ||
Quote: Robotech uses the same visuals, it's all from the newscast Scott watches of Wolf's herorics so one is to it's Wolf. ![]() |
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ShadowLogan |
Re: Proto-Alpha revisited... | ||
Quote: From an aero-frame prospective the Alpha does share some common elements with Carpenter's Fighter. Parts commonality can come from a variety of different places to: -avionics/sensors -engines (both JSF and ATF airframe and engines where selected in a pick&choose format) -ejector seats -controls -weapon systems The noticable differences that exist between the two aero-frames: -transforming vs non-transforming nature of the craft, this would allow the n-t to have a more seamless look in comparision. -the Alpha may have had to go with two lower engines instead of the n-t's config. due to the transforming nature. -the nose gun, well the Alpha does have nose-lasers (closing credits) and aircraft sometimes do get radical alterations to their airframe. The Boeing ABL demonstrator aircraft is a good noticable example in the nose area vs the commerical model. -wing area, the wing size/shape can change over time. The F/A-18's E/F wing is noticably different than the previous C/D model as an example. The n-t might have adopted that style wing to save space on the deck, and if in an atmosphere could "fold-out" (similiar to Star Wars X-Wing's S-foils). Its also possible the "Alpha" had this type of wing for one of its models circa this time frame. -Alpha's internal weapons stations, could have been sacrificed to make room for additional fuel in the n-t version (or even in the VT to make up for the loss of the Beta). They might also be a later model introduction, with earlier models using external hardpoints. Quote: I would say that this makes it more of a multi-role aircraft like a VF-1 since we only have one still shot to work from... I can see the some parts being shared, but there is no reason those parts could not make their way to other vehicles to. |
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LEM |
Re: Proto-Alpha revisited... | ||
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Hear me out.
I think Shadowlogan is making a parallel of RL tactical fighter development to what might have happened in Robotech after Reconstruction and the UEF was gearing up for its Pioneer mission. The parallel was the Mig-29 as well as Su-27 family derviative aircraft started in the Soviet Union. In America, there is currently a similar track with the F-22A, F-35 derviatives, and possibly the FB-22. All the militaries involved in programs to revolutionize their air capability. Sometime during Reconstruction (say 2012), the UEF aerospace establishment took a hard look at the VF-1 Valkyrie and went to work to improve upon its effectiveness, taking into account air engagements with the inventory of the Zentraedi forces and, perhaps, intelligence of other space faring militaries they might have encountered. They knew full well it was doubtful given the state the UEF armed forces were in that they could never mount sufficient enough numbers in spacy vessels and mecha to match, so they had to develop a weapon system designed to dominate against vast numbers of adversaries. That's where you get the YVF-4. At the time, it's the best solution to the problem, but it's far from perfect. The problem is this: You can design a weapon system to do almost everything, but it is exceedingly expensive. Ultimately, you cannot afford to outfit all branches' airwings with such an aircraft, so you comprimise. Using R&D already used in the VF-4-X program, its offshoots are optimized for the greatest overall effectiveness given the mission and affordability with the prescribed template. From this, depending on your opinion, you get the Alpha (multi-role) and possibly Willis' Condor (attack). The design lineage of the four body (four engines or 2 arm/2 leg) with outboard wing as well as twin tail (for the most part) configuration that started with the VF-4-X continued in the Alpha, Condor, Conbat (attack), Vulture (attack), Slyphid (air dom), Logan (multi-role), and the mystery aircraft (multi-role). It's a staple that's as familar in Robotech as the four poster (two tails, two horizontal stabilizers) and twin engine that originated with Mig-25 (which is derived from the Canadian Avro Arrow, the father of all modern fighters) I believe, and it's still used. |
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rtsurfer |
Re: Proto-Alpha revisited... | ||
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Is that a cannon or missile on/underneath it's arm/side structure? It's probably swept wing like the VF-1 and doesn't the VF-1's cannon attach to/underneath one of it's arms in fighter mode?
I figure they developed the VF-4 to replace the VF-1, big veritech to battle Zents (probably most used in the uprisings). Cost and functionality (VF-4 had to be expensive because of size and complexity of transformation) probably prompted the development of smaller VT's like the Logan, Alpha (prototype(s)), this craft, and the Sphylide (if there is a transformable model). "rtsurfer's two cent..." ;O)
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Basara 549 |
Re: Proto-Alpha revisited... | ||
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An interesting note I've mentioned before:
This fighter... This concept fighter is one that was apparently dear to Kawamori's heart. It never flew, but was the XF-108 Rapier, intended to be the escort fighter for the XB-70 Valkyrie bomber (which of course, IS his favorite aircraft). Change it from a single to a double configuration, and you get a dead ringer for the F-203 Dragon II. To me, this aircraft playing an important role in post-2000 events in Robotech and Macross makes me doubt that the F-15 and later aircraft existed in anything resembling their real-world forms in those fictional universes. We know the F-14 existed; in fact, the armament of the Rapier was to be the Phoenix missiles of the F-14, as well as the Falcon missiles of the YF-12. One has to go from there (perhaps, something was done to mitigate the thorough infiltration of the Arrow project by Soviet agents, that enabled that project to escape the chopping block, or at least cross-fertilize the XF-108 project), and not accept anything from real world 1970s-2007 as a given. One should always be wary of a scientist speaking out of his narrow field, or those invoking their name outside their fields. Scientists are human too, and are just as prone to cling to 'causes', just or frivolous, as the rest of our species. - Dr. Peter Wykoff Walker, 11 Sept 1997, rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Stan Bundy sbundy@kih.net ICQ: Basara (2878324)Administrator, RDF-HQ Communications Center, and Ringmaster of the Disciples of Zor, Robotech, and Robotech Fanfiction Webrings Fanfic Author: The Freeman Chronicles, The Andrews Incident and The Manifestation of Destinies Author of the ABP-Z4 for the Robotech RPG (The Rifter #5), and net supplements for all Palladium RPGs. Maintainer, Palladium Fan FAQ Gaming files, the FAQ and the fanfic are at: http://home.kih.net/~sbundy/ |
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LEM |
Re: Proto-Alpha revisited... | ||
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Macross internet source material states that the F-203 goes operational in 2003. Preproduction for this aircraft also started after the "Visitor" crashed in 2001. Presumably, early information recovered from Macross aided in its development. I don't see why we have to ignore the aerospace development tree of 1950-2001. There would be some modifications though.
I would concede that there were no F-22A or F-35 derivatives as we know them now (production) because of preceeding events leading up to the GCW and the war itself, but papertrail if not the actual protoytpes would have existed. That, however, is beside the point. The point I made was that militaries take one successful design or design parameters and milk it for all its worth in future aircraft is still valid. As far as western aircraft goes, any deviation from an established norm will mitigate the chances of that aircraft from entering service. I don't believe I made the statement that these 5th generation ever aircraft existed in the RT-universe. |
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ShadowLogan |
Re: Proto-Alpha revisited... | ||
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Taken from the shots at Point K.
The first is of a 3 engine fighter (Robotech Research refers to it as a REF Type 2 aircraft). The other objects identifyable otherwise are ships IMHO and I did not take any screenshots. ![]() This one might be the Type2 or the Wolfe as the engine ports are a total wipeout. The Alpha Battloid has an odd shaped head don't you think? ![]() This next assortment shows other crashed craft that might be related to the Wolfe Flashback fighter, but are only visible in the background and where the clearest I saw. ![]() ![]() There where a few other shots that I thought might be related to this discussion, but upon later reflection they do not appear to be and either are another type(s) of craft. Quote: At first I didn't see it, but now I can see what your seeing on the "arm" on the pilot's right if he is facing with the nose. It does look like a cannon as there is a barrel like effect at its front. The VF-1 does carry its gunpod in the same type of location (attached to the arm in fighter mode). LEM: you are correct about what I was getting at |
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charmquark2 |
Re: | ||
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One of the mecha designers from Mospeada drawed a 2007 version of the Alpha, have you seen it? I have the scan in my pc but I dont know how to attach it here
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Protoculture |
Re: Re: | ||
Quote: Ahha, do you mean this one .... clicky-clicky New Alpha Design It was posted in MW by MW forummers & Palladium RT board by Brooklyn. I posted this response a while back on Cpt. JLS' Roboblog: The Odyssey ... later on Palladium RT Board ... & copy pasted it back on this thread ... here it is: If I'm not mistaken, there's also a pic from the same mag that shows conjectural 'organic' Invid mechs, a retcon of Iiga Scout, Gurab Shocktrooper & Gosu Battloid. About the retcon Invid design from the said mag ... here is the direct link: New Invid Design It shows how a 'centipede'-like Invid grub evolved to a 4 legged Iiga & to a Gurab trooper & finally a humanoid Gosu. The retcon Invid shows a nasty departure from a slug-driven exo-skeleton Inbit mechs to a Zerg-like or Aliens-Xenomorphs or to the ST-Arachnids. I kinda like these new 'organic' conjectured insectoid Inbit. BTW, the retcon Legioss 2007 fighter shares the similarity with the pre-production art of Gamma fighter as shown here:
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charmquark2 |
Re: Re: | ||
Quote: can you be more specific? I dont see any similarity |
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CavScout |
Re: Re: | ||
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What thread on MW.com is that? (also, what mag is that?)
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CavScout |
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Protoculture |
Re: Re: | ||
Quote: The mag is Hobby Japan, I believed. The new Legioss drawings appear in two MW threads concerning the new Aoshima 1/48 Legioss toy & CM Corporation Legioss/Tread. Both images appear here: Aoshima 1/48 Legioss MW thread Although, the new Inbit image appear in page 10 (the page I'm linking above) & the new Legioss / Dread image appear on pg 11 of the same thread. BTW, Roger Harkavy posted this nifty info a while back on Cpt JLS Roboblog regarding the images: "It's not a sequel or a prequel, just a walk down memory lane with Hideki Kakinuma, who created new art to go with the interview. Thanks to Matt Alt who gave me the rundown: He said that because there were no toy sponsors for the Invid he had a totally free hand, and originally wanted 16 different types. These are some that never got used. Interesting: the original Inbit concept was "powered suits for insect creatures," but evolved into giant insect-creatures themselves. He also says that the concept was that they'd encounter more "primitive" versions farther out (from Reflex Point, I assume) that would gradually grow more and more sophisticated and eventually humanoid at the center. But: "Alas...." Also: Originally, he wanted to portray the Inbit as formless, ethereal creatures that came to Earth, sampled and experienced the local environment, and then left, but he couldn't quite flesh out the approach and so abandoned it during the planning stages." By Roger, at 10:04" |
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charmquark2 |
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So, Kakinuma drawed that new Alpha but the Alpha was a creation of Aramaki, right? Too bad, Mospeada has two mecha designers who can create cool VF designs and Robotech has for designing mecha the unskilled Tommy Yune and his korean friends from mediocre comic books. Moreover, Mospeada has the talent of Amano for character designs and Robotech also gets the wonderful skills of Tommy Yune for them
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